Apple acquires PA Semi; Press proves lack of understanding. [UPDATED]

Wednesday 23rd April 2008, 02:00:00 PM, written by Arun

It's official: the iPhone's future CPU will have a TDP of 25W! Or so mindlessly speculate Forbes and a variety of other websites following Apple's stunning acquisition of P.A. Semi, a manufacturer of power-efficient PowerPC-based CPUs.

Of course, it should be obvious that such a claim is absolute nonsense. The company's dual-core processor, which is manufactured on a 65nm process (likely at IBM), sports typical power consumption of 5 to 13W at 2GHz. Even if shrunk to 45nm, stripped of its second core, synthesised for a lower target frequency, and binned even more aggressively for power efficiency.. It'd still be take substantially too much power for a mobile phone. The idle power consumption of 1W would also need to be reduced by more than two orders of magnitude.

So clearly this acquisition isn't for the iPhone or the iPod, except perhaps in the very-long-term with a different processor architecture developed by the same team. Which doesn't seem very likely either; they'd need to integrate multimedia capabilities on the same chip and so forth, so effectively Apple would be designing the entire system except the baseband. They'd be competing with a proprietary solution against every single handheld SoC manufacturer in the world. Once again, nonsense!

So what's the point behind the acquisition, then? Well first of all, it likely represents a complete rejection of Intel's Atom architecture for ultraportables and mobile devices between the iPhone and the Macbook, such as a previously rumoured Apple Tablet PC. Secondly, it also represents a possible rejection of Intel for more embedded applications such as the Apple TV. And finally, it might mean trouble for Intel in the Mac Mini and Macbook Air segments of the market.

Those who claim this represents a 'missed opportunity' for Intel with its Atom architecture are completely missing the big picture; this isn't just about new business Intel might have captured. It's also about existing business they're likely to lose now, and obviously the financial consequences of that are more problematic.

One intriguing question, of course, is who's going to deliver the multimedia and connectivity capabilities for future P.A. Semi-based Apple products. After all, Apple still doesn't have any Southbridge or GPU capabilities. P.A. Semi claims their CPU integrates both the northbridge and the southbridge, but that's not really true; it's really a SoC aimed at embedded markets, which don't need SATA or USB or PCI or ... - and they pretty clearly don't have that IP either.

The only two companies manufacturing modern southbridges and who don't have a x86 license are NVIDIA and SiS. However, that's not the only alternative. For example, they could use a third party chip for SATA and integrate USB (or use yet another third party chip for that, or request a custom chip combining the two). So clearly a traditional southbridge isn't the only possibility, although it does remain relatively likely. In terms of GPUs, they can use a single-chip GPU+Southbridge from NVIDIA, or a discrete solution from NVIDIA or AMD (such as in the Apple TV). Or they might even license PowerVR's high-end 3D and Video IP cores if they really want to do more in-house.

Note that we're not saying every single press coverage of this story got everything wrong; that's obviously not the case, but the vast vast majority did and most didn't even go into any detail, so hopefully this rectifies that.

!UPDATE4! [24th of April]: The Wall Street Journal quotes Steve Jobs as saying the deal is indeed for the iPod and iPhone, but from a talent perspective and to a much lesser extend a technology perspective (and certainly not for their current or upcoming products based on PWRficient). So indeed, much of the speculation above is simply incorrect; what is actually correct is the scenario I proposed in paragraph 3, which I described as 'once again, nonsense!' - clearly Apple doesn't seem to think so. As we said, it seems that Apple might have been doing semiconductor R&D substantially before this acquisition, which goes completely against common wisdom. So you'll have to excuse us for not properly taking into consideration data that has, quite simply, never been made public and very few people knew about - and which would still massively surprise just about everyone if all of its implications are indeed what we think they are.

UPDATE3: Looks like it might be the case that Apple did do some semiconductor R&D in-house even a long time before this acquisition, especially for handhelds. So it is possible (but very far from certain) that they are indeed only interested in the engineers and patents, not the  architecture. In which case the mainstream press coverage would still be wrong, btw: obviously PWRficient is never going to be used in the handheld space. Clearly the picture is getting muddier by the minute...

UPDATE2: A new article at EETimes.com makes the big picture substantially harder to understand: apparently, P.A. Semi isn't even sure whether they'll be able to renegociate a PowerPC license, and Apple was "not interested in the startup's products or road map, but is buying the company for its intellectual property and engineering talent".

However, it's worth pointing out they do not explicitly say they are not interested in P.A. Semi's current architecture; so, it may simply be that what Apple wants to do with it (i.e. the chip roadmap) is different from P.A. Semi's previous plans. It would seem extremely strange for Apple to acquire a company with so many short/mid-term contracts and design wins (see: EETimes article) just to put it back in stealth mode for several years to work on a new architecture.

UPDATE1: It has been pointed out to us that P.A. Semi has been working on a solution with integrated SATA and USB. This was mentioned for example by The Inquirer in February 2007, although obviously it got delayed since then. It would seem to make the 'discrete GPU' option by far the most likely. The article also claimed the company was working on a quad-core derivative, that might be appealing for future server products if Apple keeps it on their roadmap.


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Latest Thread Comments (19 total)
Posted by tangey on Friday, 25-Apr-08 12:12:25 UTC
With regard to Apple already having done semiconductor R&D "behind closed doors", this would fit in with the PowerVr licence to an "International Electronics Systems Company" back in July last year. This was the first occasion Imagination Technologies was not in a position to explicitedly mention by name the licence taker, and also the first time their IP was not licenced to a semi-conductor company. it is widely assumed to be Apple, a famously secretive company, licensing PowerVr SGX. Apple currently uses PowerVr MBX in the iphone and itouch via Samsung.

The licence announcement went on to state:-

"The SoCs to be developed under this license agreement will be produced for this new partner by Imagination’s existing semiconductor partners and/or new chip manufacturing partners"

Now at the time I assume this most likely referred to Samsung for a next get Soc for next gen iphones, I'm starting to think otherwise as Samsungs latest chips appears to not be using IMG IP.

Lead time from licence sign to product has been typically 18-24 months for IMG, that points to 1st half of 2009 for product launch if true.

Posted by Arun on Friday, 25-Apr-08 12:31:02 UTC
Quoting tangey
Lead time from licence sign to product has been typically 18-24 months for IMG, that points to 1st half of 2009 for product launch if true.
But we don't know if this wasn't signed before; it very well could have been signed as the design for the iPhone 2G ended and only announced later. If that wasn't the case, however, it could indeed refer to the iPhone 3.5G instead... But I'm skeptical. Or, of course, it could refer to something else such as Sony's PSP2 (after all, it's even more accurate to describe Sony in such terms than Apple).

Posted by tangey on Friday, 25-Apr-08 13:39:58 UTC
In relation to 3G iphone (wandering off topic slightly), is there any impending reason why the current processor can't power the 3G iphone. The new iphone may have GPS and of course has 3G which is more processor intensive, but the graphics test done thus far on the phone would indicate that overall performance is at the very least on a Par with Nokia's N95, and its 3G + GPS etc. Ok the screen on the iphone is signficantly bigger, but it appears to me to be likely that the 3G iphones will have the same processor as the current ones.

I know you weren't suggesting otherwise but I have until recently thought the new iphone might have a different processor, perhaps they'll just clock it up a bit if necessary.

Posted by Simon F on Friday, 25-Apr-08 14:42:40 UTC
Quoting tangey
In relation to 3G iphone (wandering off topic slightly), is there any impending reason why the current processor can't power the 3G iphone. .....
I know you weren't suggesting otherwise but I have until recently thought the new iphone might have a different processor, perhaps they'll just clock it up a bit if necessary.
One would imagine that the CPU has little to do (apart from driver support) with the transceiver technology used. According to the register (http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2007/07/02/iphone_autopsies_conducted/) the current iphone has 2 chips dedicated to cellular support. I'd imagine something else would be substituted for 3G... but IANA hardware engineer so take with the usual crystal of NaCl.

Posted by Arun on Friday, 25-Apr-08 15:30:27 UTC
I agree with Simon; I've never seen a single piece of evidence that the application processor's performance would matter for the baseband (at least in a non-negligible way). And no matter that, the iPhone 2G's application processor is vastly more powerful than that of many 3G phones anyway.
Quoting tangey
I know you weren't suggesting otherwise but I have until recently thought the new iphone might have a different processor, perhaps they'll just clock it up a bit if necessary.
Did you mean 'might not have'? Either way, I do believe they could keep the current chip, yes. However, it's a 90nm chip and given the timeframe it would be bizarre bot to switch to 65nm. As for the ARM core itself, it would likely remain an ARM11 either way, just perhaps clocked a bit higher indeed.

Posted by tangey on Friday, 25-Apr-08 18:38:10 UTC
"3G more processor intensive"....was meant to suggest what happens after the data gets passed from baseband to processor i.e. going from 2.5G to 3G can give a 10x increase in the data stream. So streaming video becomes higher-def and more Frames per second, webpages come in a lot quicker and to stop the rendering being a bottleneck requires quicker page rendering etc.


I actually meant that I assumed the processor *would* be changed in a 3G iphone, for the above reasons, but given the iphone procesor seems to have good performance (interpolating from the GLbenchmarks) maybe there is no need.

Posted by knux on Friday, 25-Apr-08 18:43:18 UTC
Quoting iwod
Well if they use PowerVR it would be even better.
Well they are a PowerVR licensee, so it's not unlikely that they may integrate a PowerVR IP as part of an SoC

Posted by tangey on Friday, 25-Apr-08 19:01:07 UTC
Quoting knux
Well they are a PowerVR licensee, so it's not unlikely that they may integrate a PowerVR IP as part of an SoC

Allegedly :!:

Posted by knux on Friday, 25-Apr-08 19:02:51 UTC
Quoting tangey
Allegedly :!:
It's almost definite that they are an IMGTEC licensee.

Posted by tangey on Wednesday, 30-Apr-08 11:20:33 UTC
IMG just announced a licence to Samsung

"Imagination Technologies Group plc (LSE:IMG; "Imagination") - a leader in System-on-Chip Intellectual Property ("SoC IP") - reports that it has signed a licence agreement with Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd. (“Samsung”) with respect to certain POWERVR SGX graphics and VXD video IP cores.

This licence enables Samsung to manufacture semiconductor devices which integrate these IP cores from Imagination."

This is the first time IMG have announced a MANUFACTURING ONLY licence. In all other licences its been described as the company licensing use of a particular IP product or products.

So we have Samsung, who don't have an SGX and VXD licence themselves, being given the permission to manufacture parts that contain those IP cores. Samsung are a known provider of the current iphone processor to Apple. We previously have an "electonics systems" company licensing IMG's SGX and Video cores, the first time IMG did not mention a licencee by name. Apple are notoriously secretive.

Clearly todays license announcement tells me that Samsung will be producing processors containing IMG's next gen IP, on behalf of and for use by Apple.


And of relevance to this thread, I suspect at least part of the reason for the purchase of PA semi was to use their knowledge of Low power to design the Soc that Samsung will manufacture.


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