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Old 21-Jan-2013, 14:39   #1
Love_In_Rio
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Default Xbox One (Durango) Technical hardware investigation

Here you have:

http://www.vgleaks.com/world-exclusi...ango-unveiled/
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Old 21-Jan-2013, 14:42   #2
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No 386bit memory, no GDDR5, no dual APU, no 4 layer bluray, no 64MB ES/ED RAM... fanboy dreams are crashing down.

But, it has HDMI IN.
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Old 21-Jan-2013, 14:46   #3
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32 MBs eDRAM seems little anaemic. Also suggests ROPs aren't on the eDRAM, meaning 170 GBs effective total BW to GPU. And CPU can access eDRAM via northbridge?

What are the Data Move Engines? Those accelerators aren't connected by any arrows to the processors or memory, so it looks like they're orphan silicon!
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Old 21-Jan-2013, 14:50   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shifty Geezer View Post
32 MBs eDRAM seems little anaemic. Also suggests ROPs aren't on the eDRAM, meaning 170 GBs effective total BW to GPU. And CPU can access eDRAM via northbridge?

What are the Data Move Engines? Those accelerators aren't connected by any arrows to the processors or memory, so it looks like they're orphan silicon!
Data move engines... the blitter strikes back?.
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Old 21-Jan-2013, 14:57   #5
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¿Why would Kinect have its own bus instead of using USB 3?

Seems very odd.

At least it'll be able to play blurays.
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Old 21-Jan-2013, 14:58   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shifty Geezer View Post
32 MBs eDRAM seems little anaemic. Also suggests ROPs aren't on the eDRAM, meaning 170 GBs effective total BW to GPU. And CPU can access eDRAM via northbridge?

What are the Data Move Engines? Those accelerators aren't connected by any arrows to the processors or memory, so it looks like they're orphan silicon!
I would guess simple DMA's that can just move the ESRAM to/from main memory.
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Old 21-Jan-2013, 15:01   #7
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Originally Posted by BRiT View Post
¿Why would Kinect have its own bus instead of using USB 3?

Seems very odd.
Maybe they want to connect it to thunderbolt and get very large bandwith. How much power can one thunderbolt cable carry? Maybe they dont want power cable for Kinect 2.
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Old 21-Jan-2013, 15:05   #8
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Hopefully they can perform high quality scales on anything they transfer, for free.

On the bright side, at least it's got a HDD attached all the time and Kinect 2 is going to be a standard feature.
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Old 21-Jan-2013, 15:09   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shifty Geezer View Post
32 MBs eDRAM seems little anaemic. Also suggests ROPs aren't on the eDRAM, meaning 170 GBs effective total BW to GPU. And CPU can access eDRAM via northbridge?
I wonder if forum members with game development experience would rather have
1) 32 MB of read/write ESRAM with 102.4 GB/s bandwidth (ROPs use compression)
2) 32 MB ESRAM + compression-less ROPs, with massive internal bandwidth, 102.4 GB/s to the rest of the GPU

My understanding is that in the first setup, you could:
- render into two 1920x1080 render targets without MSAA (32 bit color + 32 bit depth, total ~32 MB used)
- discard the depth buffers (~16 MB used)
- render into the final render target (also 1920x1080 without MSAA, ~16 MB) texturing from the first two render targets
Of course in the last step the 102.4 GB/s are used for both texture reads and framebuffer operations.
However, with 2xMSAA you could only fit a single render target, so the second setup seems better than the first one (at least the ROPs have more bandwidth).
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Old 21-Jan-2013, 15:14   #10
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I really hope the ESRAM contains the ROPs and addition logic with very high internal bandwidth like the 360 setup and isn't just a scratch pad.
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Old 21-Jan-2013, 15:19   #11
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So tell me Ranger, which one of the floating purple blocks of silicon is supposed to be the magic one?
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Old 21-Jan-2013, 15:24   #12
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By the way, this is not going to be more than 250 mm^2, in my opinion.
- 8xJaguar: ~25 mm^2
- 4 MB cache: ~20 mm^2 *
- 32 MB ESRAM: ~20 mm^2 **
- GPU similar to Cape Verde: 123 mm^2
Difference in memory interface (256 bit versus 128 bit for Cape Verde): 20 mm^2 ***

This amounts to 208 mm^2. Even accounting for the remaining components, I don't see it exceeding 250 mm^2. Given the low cost of DDR3, the console is likely going to be pretty cheap.

* Rough estimate based on Trinity die, accounting for 32 nm to 28 nm transition)
** Assuming 1T-SRAM, scaling Wikipedia density at 45 nm to 28 nm
*** Rough estimate based on the 128-bit interface in the Trinity die, assuming the 128-bit GDDR5 interface is of similar size.
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Old 21-Jan-2013, 15:25   #13
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So would the data move engine allow tiling to become more feasible compared to 360?
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Old 21-Jan-2013, 15:26   #14
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Few questions..

1)1.2 TF probably about a 7770 GHZ edition.?
2)Could other non gaming fusions draw resources from the GPU,while gaming.? Example surface streaming.?
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Old 21-Jan-2013, 15:27   #15
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I don't see anything new here, it looks like a consolidation of the latest rumors being talked about here, is there anything that makes vgleaks a more reliable source?

They call it a data move engine, that sounds closer to the cell's DMA engine, not the amiga blitter/copper. I still wonder if it can do "something" while it moves data.
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Old 21-Jan-2013, 15:28   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deanos View Post
So tell me Ranger, which one of the floating purple blocks of silicon is supposed to be the magic one?
Obviously the Blitter / Data Move Engine! (I'm only half joking - it's very 'mysterious')

This layout looks very much like the 360, doesn't it? (GPU / North Bridge master of all memory again) And in that sense, the availability of the 32MB ESRAM could be already just for backwards compatibility alone (but still be more useful). Kinect on a separate bus makes sense as in the 360 Kinect couldn't get enough bandwidth (remember that if you hooked it up to PC, you got twice the bandwidth), due to a shared USB chipset. Of course this owuldn't be necessary initially because USB 3.0 can handle more, but if in future they would support 3.0 USB memory cards for storage as they did for the 360 this gen, then that could start eating up bandwidth and still cause issues. So much safer to give this its own port, and perhaps a type of connection that gives the lowest level of lag etc.

I am assuming that the three purple blocks are connecting to both CPU and GPU, though not sure. Right now we don't know how they connect to the rest, if not directly to the north-bridge.

This still gives very little information, even if true.
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Old 21-Jan-2013, 15:30   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McHuj View Post
I really hope the ESRAM contains the ROPs and addition logic with very high internal bandwidth like the 360 setup and isn't just a scratch pad.
Agreed (but I would like a developer's opinion on this). A scratch pad would probably be useful in general, but 102 GB/s doesn't make sense for a scratch pad you have to read/write from, provided how cheap it would have been to provide a faster interface to on-chip memory. The only setup in which 102 GB/s make sense is a Xenos-like setup, IMHO.
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Old 21-Jan-2013, 15:30   #18
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My guess that the rumors aren't really offering that much more in terms of new stuff (although this one does have some minor bits) is because this is what the console is and pretty much everything has leaked.
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Old 21-Jan-2013, 15:34   #19
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If this is accurate and the PS4 has a discrete GPU in addition to the APU, then the PS4 will win the next console generation.
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Old 21-Jan-2013, 15:40   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deanos View Post
So tell me Ranger, which one of the floating purple blocks of silicon is supposed to be the magic one?
lol no idea. lately i've been downplaying the magic blocks anyway. i dont know what they are but rumblings (well, supposedly the blitter wannabe, fixed function somethings, and audio chip) that theyre nothing paradigm changing.

as much as i defend "our" rumors and all, still 1% of me thinks "hey, maybe somebody made this spiffy schematic up based on the B3D/Neogaf rumors". But yeah I imagine it's legit.

Edit: also, wasn't the GPU 1.228 TF's or something, super precisely? Anybody confirm/remember? The text says exactly 1.2, could it be any clue of possible fakeness?
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Old 21-Jan-2013, 15:40   #21
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That 1.2tf GPU looks expensive ... can they afford it ?
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Old 21-Jan-2013, 15:42   #22
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That diagram makes no sense. It very much has a "dumbed down for fucktards" feel to it.
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Old 21-Jan-2013, 15:45   #23
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MS seen to have massively dropped the ball with regards to high fidelity gaming..

I can now see why 3Gb and 2 CPU Cores are allegedly reserved.. assuming EDRAM offsets any other RAM bandwidth issues, what is left is substantially below the competition.. and from the DF article,

I can't see how they won't have different render targets to their competition, something that I think is so very risky.. you are essentially changing your market, ditch the hardcore gamer and aim at the market that seems to have got over the casual NUI fad, and hope you can push through all their other media devices such as Ipads/Smart TV's..

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Old 21-Jan-2013, 15:48   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by function View Post
Hopefully they can perform high quality scales on anything they transfer, for free.

On the bright side, at least it's got a HDD attached all the time and Kinect 2 is going to be a standard feature.

the diagram doesnt necessarily confirm either one of those thing imo. though it wouldn't shock me if hdd is indeed standard.
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Old 21-Jan-2013, 15:48   #25
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Sounds like they moved the console budget to the Sony takeover pool. They are at 12.70B at the moment
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