[fantasista]

Long for my first post, I know, sorry for the wall of text.

http://crave.cnet.co.uk/homecinema/a...back-50009616/

Apple's new computers don't have disc drives because they want you to buy all your software, movies and music from them. How typical.

I'm going to state right now that I regard Microsoft as pretty evil, even as corporations go. They're anti-competitive, they got to where they are now through what I regard as unethical practices, and they release buggy, bloated, sometimes incomplete software and then provide poor support. I find it crazy that a company can spend so much money and employ so many people and still release such unstable programs, but I know WHY they do, because they have no competition and people buy their products no matter what. I endured years of problems with Windows and DirectX; the last straw for me and Windows PCs was when out of nowhere (I hadn't installed any new software, nothing), about two years ago, my Vista installation completely crashed and wouldn't load to the login screen. I just decided I'd had it.

So now I'm typing this to you on a Macbook Pro 15", and overall I have to say that for my needs, I'm pretty happy with it. I don't need it for gaming, that's all on another machine. OS X is so much more stable and while I do have the occasional slowdown, which is annoying, I get very few program crashes and only two or three times has it actually crashed completely, to the point where I have to reset it. I've never had such luck with any version of Windows.

But, if my memory serves me right, I shelled out nearly $1500 for it. Maybe more. I have a poor memory when it comes to anything money-related. And the hardware inside is probably what was in a regular laptop that cost 1/3 what I paid. If it was possible to install OS X, the only reason I bought a Mac, on a regular PC I would do that in a heartbeat.

Also, this thing isn't actually very good for editing video and graphics, at least with the apps I'm using, Final Cut Pro HD 6 and Adobe Illustrator & Photoshop CS2. Maybe newer versions run faster, I don't know. CS2 ran much better on my Pentium 4 machine with crappy Intel integrated graphics, and Photoshop 7.0 ran great on my even older PIII with my nemesis of a graphics card, that crappy Aladdin TNT2. I think the idea that Macs are better for editing is now a myth that was only true way back when IBM-compatibles didn't even have a decent GUI.

And the rest of the software for it isn't very good either, especially what actually comes from Apple. Apple's iLife package does nothing for me, with the exception of iPhoto, which somehow has become corrupted and according to Apple support will require a full OS re-install to start working again. :disapproving: And IMO iWork is completely inferior to Office or, hell, even an old version of Corel's suite. Even though I've enjoyed using this computer, overall, it's definitely not worth what I paid. I'm not a tech company fanboy and I don't have a ton of money, I want the best value for money.

Finally, as Apple moves from an underdog to a major player, they're getting increasingly arrogant and increasingly trying to strong-arm users and developers and pushing their proprietary standards. Even before I bought my Mac I wasn't a fan of their attitude and corporate image, but since then my opinion of them has continued to decrease. CDs, DVDs and Blu-ray are still viable and current formats, it's not the same thing as phasing out floppy disks. If anyone buys one of their computers, their whole library of disc media will be useless. And for example, how is someone going to do a repair install without a disc? Fortunately a lot of Apple users are completely clueless and will probably just buy a new Mac when they have problems.

So as you may have gathered, I probably won't be buying a Mac again for the foreseeable future, and my next mp3 player (I actually got my iPod for free, so I don't mind) will probably be from Creative. There are better competing products out there at lower prices, maybe people will start to notice eventually.

[Pete]

You know you can buy an external optical drive, right? And you can buy/download apps from the whole internet, not just Apple's App Store.

I don't understand how any app can run slower than on a P4, but I don't use those apps. AFAIK, Apple's "i" apps are geared toward home users than pros, so it doesn't surprise me that you'd find them inferior to pro suites like Office or WordPerfect.

I'm not sure how hating M$ gives your Apple nitpicks more cred. If something sucks, it sucks. Though I have to say I really like OS X, at least with Quicksilver/Alfred and Growl. (This is the opposite of my limited experience with previous Apple OSes, which I could crash within 10 mins.) Apps aside, you can't really knock MBP hardware quality. Price is a valid point, but they're no more expensive relative to average laptops than IBM ThinkPads were. I don't deny they're expensive, but I'm not sure you're going to find as nicely-built a laptop for 1/3 the price. 1/2, maybe.

I enjoy the irony of your switching to Creative b/c your fed up with pushy monopolists.

Sorry to rain on your rant, though. I've had my share of crashes on this MBP (mostly from iTunes), though none for quite a while.

[tongue_of_colicab]

Finally. I don't understand why we are still stuck with disk driver. I havent got a disk drive in any of my systems for at least 6 years now. I'd much rather download iso's and than use a usb stick or portable drive. Much more conventient to carry around and much faster as well.

Other than that, why is MS so evil? If you consider MS evil than Apple has to be Satan itself (which it is as far as I'm concerned).

I mean, wtf? Just look at all those crapple lawsuits. Yeah, fuck you, we sue you because we invented rounded edges! pay us a billion mkay.

[McHuj]

I agree with the removal of the drives. As long as the computer supports USB and you can attach a drive when needed that's good enough.

Other than ripping a movie, I don't remember the last time I used a disc. Even backups go to an IOsafe fireproof drive.

[Pressure]

Is this post really about new Apple computers shedding their analog ancestry aka the crappy optical drive or just a personal rant? I mean no disrespect but you don't come off as a very savvy computer user.

If you used Creative Suite for anything serious, you would have known what a piece of horse manure Creative Suite 2 was and is. Besides being PowerPC-only (it has to run in emulated PowerPC mode through Rosetta on Intel based Macs) it also means you are running on Snow Leopard or earlier.

Which also means that your computer is 3 or more years old by now.

Most if not all of your problems can be solved by reinstalling your operating system and replace the dreadful Creative Suite 2 (from 2005). Luckily Adobe have sobered up since that period and managed to churn out a slightly better version with native Intel support for OS X.

The reason for removing the optical drive are many and I sure don't shed any tears to see it go the way of the floppy disk. The time has come. I don't even have any software that are not digitally downloadable or can fit on a USB-stick.

[fantasista]

Originally Posted by Pressure

Is this post really about new Apple computers shedding their analog ancestry aka the crappy optical drive or just a personal rant? I mean no disrespect but you don't come off as a very savvy computer user.

If you used Creative Suite for anything serious, you would have known what a piece of horse manure Creative Suite 2 was and is. Besides being PowerPC-only (it has to run in emulated PowerPC mode through Rosetta on Intel based Macs) it also means you are running on Snow Leopard or earlier.

Which also means that your computer is 3 or more years old by now.

Most if not all of your problems can be solved by reinstalling your operating system and replace the dreadful Creative Suite 2 (from 2005). Luckily Adobe have sobered up since that period and managed to churn out a slightly better version with native Intel support for OS X.

The reason for removing the optical drive are many and I sure don't shed any tears to see it go the way of the floppy disk. The time has come. I don't even have any software that are not digitally downloadable or can fit on a USB-stick.

Um? CS2 doesn't run through Rosetta Stone. 7.0 and CS do, which is unfortunate, because I preferred working with 7.0. I have used CS3 and 4 at work and school, and the newer versions just have a lot more features I don't need and I personally find them harder to work with because of the menu redesign, which is why I'm still using an older version.

As for all your software being on a USB stick, what will you do in case of a crash? External hard drives crash, USB sticks get errors, although they're obviously still safer than floppies. But a DVD-R can hold 3.5 GB and will probably always be more stable and less expensive than flash media, I don't see how it can be considered totally obsolete, when the average computer user probably doesn't own a USB stick with a larger capacity than that. The floppy disk was obsolete with the advent of the CD-RW because it had such a tiny capacity, there isn't yet a massive gap between DVDs and USB drives. It's also currently still much easier to boot from optical media in case of an OS crash.

Finally, the only reason the article gives for removing optical drives altogether is that without them, Apple can make their computers thinner and a little lighter. For what other reasons are we better off without them?

[fantasista]

Originally Posted by Pete

I enjoy the irony of your switching to Creative b/c your fed up with pushy monopolists.

Sorry to rain on your rant, though. I've had my share of crashes on this MBP (mostly from iTunes), though none for quite a while.

Yes, I realize the irony of that; I have a Diamond Monster Sound (Aureal Vortex 2) in my retro gaming PC. The market for their sound cards, anyway, has shrunk so far now that it's not a very relevant monopoly anyway... And at any rate, my reason for buying a Creative mp3 player would be solely the price and relative performance.

[zed]

Ive got a mac mini without any drives

I prefer that to the old one with a drive

reason?
Smaller,cheaper etc & you know one day the dvd player is gonna crap out and then youre screwed, also I have the option of choosing what I have hooked to it dvd/bluray
but yes like any multibillion corporation theyre Eviiiill

[Grall]

After my PS3 conked out (phat launch model YLOD issue) I used my macbook pro/thunderbolt display quite a bit to watch DVDs with; the OSX media player was better than windows' own. Sound was easy to pipe out with an optical cable in the headphones jack. Having an optical drive was a nice convenience for me who have several hundred titles in my DVD library.

However, now I have a slim PS3, and it has (again) taken over all movie playing duties. When time comes to update the macbook, in another two years or so maybe, an optical drive won't even be an option, and I guess I won't be missing it either by then. I don't have any software at all for the mac on disc other than the OSX snow leopard disc the computer was originally delivered with and that OS is now obsolete, and besides, the EFI bios can download the OS over the internet when time comes for a reinstall...

It's about time relly to do away with optical discs. While downloadable media also has risks, like issues with DRM and quality concerns for example (no streaming HD video service is nearly as good quality as a bluray movie), the optical drive has issues as well. It takes up a lot of space in a portable computer, gobbles power and it's daaamn slow, and often quite noisy as well when reading data discs. Things change. I won't be missing optical discs. I haven't bought a single PC game on disc since the last/latest Wolfenstein launched.

Well OK. I ordered the collector's edition of Limbo from Amazon even though I already own the steam version, just because it's such a cool game. But that doesn't count.

[Dr Evil]

Originally Posted by zed

Ive got a mac mini without any drives

I prefer that to the old one with a drive

reason?
Smaller,cheaper etc & you know one day the dvd player is gonna crap out and then youre screwed, also I have the option of choosing what I have hooked to it dvd/bluray
but yes like any multibillion corporation theyre Eviiiill

2010 Mac Mini had the drive, it wasn't any bigger or more expensive. Why are you any more screwed if the drive breaks, than if you don't have the drive in the first place? I haven't heard them being unreliable.

[Pressure]

Originally Posted by fantasista

Um? CS2 doesn't run through Rosetta Stone. 7.0 and CS do, which is unfortunate, because I preferred working with 7.0. I have used CS3 and 4 at work and school, and the newer versions just have a lot more features I don't need and I personally find them harder to work with because of the menu redesign, which is why I'm still using an older version.

As for all your software being on a USB stick, what will you do in case of a crash? External hard drives crash, USB sticks get errors, although they're obviously still safer than floppies. But a DVD-R can hold 3.5 GB and will probably always be more stable and less expensive than flash media, I don't see how it can be considered totally obsolete, when the average computer user probably doesn't own a USB stick with a larger capacity than that. The floppy disk was obsolete with the advent of the CD-RW because it had such a tiny capacity, there isn't yet a massive gap between DVDs and USB drives. It's also currently still much easier to boot from optical media in case of an OS crash.

Finally, the only reason the article gives for removing optical drives altogether is that without them, Apple can make their computers thinner and a little lighter. For what other reasons are we better off without them?

Trust me, Creative Suite 2 is PowerPC-only and needs to run through Rosetta on Intel based Macs. I know because I still have the bloody package on my shelf, haunting me with it's text, saying Adobe Creative Suite 2 Premium. It was released before Macs had gone Intel (in fact, the year before) and it was first with Adobe Creative Suite 4, that Adobe got around to making it Intel compatible.

The requirements are clearly stated on the box: PowerPC G4 or G5.

No, a single sided DVD can in fact hold 4.7 GB and was released back in 1995. It's time to let it go and see it go the way of the dodo. It is holding technology back. We will all have forgotten about its existence 5 years from now and look at it weirdly. Our children will not understand what they are for and they will have trouble understanding the concept, just like many kids today cannot understand the connection between these two:



USB-sticks are cheap as chips and infinitely more reliable than any mechanical storage. Everyone ought to have one by now. Mechanical media like DVD and BluRay are not the future.

In case of a hard drive failure or crash on a newer Mac you can just download the operating system through the internet because of the lovely EFI.

A big 5.25" drive is simply holding form factor improvements back and that space can be used much better, especially in mobile devices. In this day and age I don't have a single program or game that came on a DVD that I use.

It may seem living life on the bleeding edge but many people have already taken the step with cloud storage and computing.

Tape is a safer backup solution than DVDs, trust me on that one.

[Grall]

Originally Posted by Dr Evil

2010 Mac Mini had the drive, it wasn't any bigger or more expensive.

It only fits one SSD/HDD with an optical drive installed, though. The DVD-less version can hold two drives.

Why are you any more screwed if the drive breaks, than if you don't have the drive in the first place?

I assume his reasoning is you'd want to repair the drive, and being without access to your computer while it's being serviced.

[RudeCurve]

Most Ultrabooks don't have optical drives either....

[zed]

I haven't heard them being unreliable.

I just finished my 52film of the month, mate dvd drives break(*) (moving bits and all that) on top of that slot loading OUCH
in preference
1. top loading
2. tray
3. slot loading

(*)If I get 6 month use Im happy

it wasn't any bigger or more expensive

1.4 kg (with dvd player) vs 1.2kg (without)
expensive, well it costs money, apple is in the business of profits thus they will claw back this cost elsewhere eg $400 in 2010 vs $400 in 2011 due to inflation is prolly ~$415 in 2011 dollars vs $400

[Dr Evil]

Originally Posted by Grall

It only fits one SSD/HDD with an optical drive installed, though. The DVD-less version can hold two drives.

Only problem is Apple wont let you purchase the regular models with two Hdds, you have to buy the server version, which is very expensive at over 1000€ in Europe. There are some aftermarket solutions, but those apply to the older models as well, where you could remove the drive and install a second HDD.

Originally Posted by zed

(*)If I get 6 month use Im happy.

I thought you said you are happy without a drive... No biggie then if it breaks as you want to be without it.

1.4 kg (with dvd player) vs 1.2kg (without)
expensive, well it costs money, apple is in the business of profits thus they will claw back this cost elsewhere eg $400 in 2010 vs $400 in 2011 due to inflation is prolly ~$415 in 2011 dollars vs $400

Seriously?

[Pressure]

Originally Posted by Dr Evil

Only problem is Apple wont let you purchase the regular models with two Hdds, you have to buy the server version, which is very expensive at over 1000€ in Europe. There are some aftermarket solutions, but those apply to the older models as well, where you could remove the drive and install a second HDD.

Although you cannot buy it with two hard drives, you can easily install a second 2.5" hard drive.

I've done it a few times and it is no hassle.

[Davros]

Originally Posted by Pressure

Tape is a safer backup solution than DVDs, trust me on that one.

Don't say things like that, everything ive ever downloaded from the net ever is on optical media

[Grall]

Originally Posted by Dr Evil

Only problem is Apple wont let you purchase the regular models with two Hdds

Apple advertised this year's version of the mini as capable of holding two drives in their recent product unveiling conference. There was no mention of only applying to the server version.

[Dr Evil]

Originally Posted by Grall

Apple advertised this year's version of the mini as capable of holding two drives in their recent product unveiling conference. There was no mention of only applying to the server version.

Unless you are talking about some other occasion,I think they were specifally talking about the server version pictured here.



US lineup for the mini is:

599$ 2-core i5
799$ 4-core i7
999$ the server model.

599-799$ models only let's the user configure the system with one HDD, the i7-version makes the fusion drive available, but not alongside a another drive.

And yes I know like Pressure mentioned, after market solutions exist and it's not that hard to install one in there. It's not something Apple is talking about as far as I know though.

[HMBR]

I don't expect computers to have CD/DVD drives anymore...
but if you need USB external drives should work just fine...

most people are moving away from optical discs for many years, so it's a waste of money and space for many....


as far as I know mac os is not iOS, as Windows 8 is not Windows RT,
so you still have many options, and you are not locked to their App store or whatever,

I have never owned an Apple product, all my experience from Mac OS comes from having some fun installing it on my PC some years ago,
it's a pretty decent system, but I fail to see any huge advantage compared to Windows... it's just another options, better in some aspects, worse in others....

I do think that apple offer good solutions though, they normally have a high standard for reliability and support from what I know, and you pay for the brand/design identity I guess.
their computers are a bit overpriced, but I'm seeing others trying the same...

[Scott_Arm]

I can't remember the last time I bought a piece of software for my computer on a disc. Has to be at least five years or more.

[Grall]

Originally Posted by Dr Evil

Unless you are talking about some other occasion,I think they were specifally talking about the server version pictured here.

That picture is of the server version, but listening to the conference and what was actually said, the mac mini was advertised as supporting two drives, across the board. Wether you can buy a non-server mini with two drives factory-installed is one thing, but the capability should be there; the mini was also described as very user-accessible by just removing the bottom cover.

[Dr Evil]

I still buy PC games sometimes on DVDs, because they are often much cheaper than on Steam. I don't always use the disc though, instead I activate the game on Steam with a serial key if possible.

[zed]

Seriously?

yes, the dvd version was 200 grams heavier (& I looked up and checked) it was $100US more expensive.
Myself I prefer to have a less massive & cheaper device

[Dr Evil]

Originally Posted by Grall

That picture is of the server version, but listening to the conference and what was actually said, the mac mini was advertised as supporting two drives, across the board. Wether you can buy a non-server mini with two drives factory-installed is one thing, but the capability should be there; the mini was also described as very user-accessible by just removing the bottom cover.

I'm sorry, but that simply isn't true. I listened it few times before I posted.

Mac Mini starts about 24m 50s in and the critical part is about one minute later.



They even say in one slide "up to 1TB HDD" which is with the $799 model. They go around telling the specs of the basic 599$ model, and then go on to say:

"and lot of our customers actually like to get it as a server to run osx aplications" then the slide I had in my previous post pops up. Just trust me on this

User friendly bottom cover grants you easy access to the memory modules and thus upgrading the memory is very easy. Upgrading or installing another HDD is relatively simple, but takes quite a bit of more work to do.

This is how you install the second HDD in to Mac Mini. I'm quite sure you void the warranty if you do this.