[egoless]

Originally Posted by Brad Grenz

And the whole internet is on your tablet or phone so why do things inside the app that can easily be found on the browser?

Because people are obsessed with apps instead of using the web browser. For example, look at the amount of complaints about no Facebook or Twitter app on the 360, when you can just open them in the web browser and pin them to My Pins for direct access if you wish. Same with Surface, etc.

Gameplay-wise it has the constraint of needing you to literally switch devices you're holding to interact with.

That's why surface has a kickstand . Seriously though, for Wii U multiplayer experiences, where one person uses the tablet while everyone else uses wiimotes, SmartGlass now offers a rough approximation. I remind you of the Kinect Adventures demo where balls were added from a phone while the user playing kinect hit them onscreen. This is similar to Mario Bros U where the tablet user adds platforms while the user playing the big screen uses them.

For single player you run into the same problem as Wii U or Dreamcast VMU where the user can only focus on one thing. Sure, you could prop up a tablet or phone next to you, but that's as cumbersome a setup as using mouse/kb.

Originally Posted by Arwin

Did they really do it themselves? Or did Sony do it for them? It's interesting that Sony's Youtube app also does it. Or didn't Sony make that one?

The youtube app on 360 updated the same day SmartGlass launched. You can use your device to control the youtube app now outside of smartglass.

[Brad Grenz]

Did they really do it themselves? Or did Sony do it for them? It's interesting that Sony's Youtube app also does it. Or didn't Sony make that one?

Netflix and Hulu would be primarily interested in getting people to subscribe to their service, and all the apps that are developed are only to get more people to subscribe. Anything that can help them make it easier is a plus.

While I get what you're saying, it is just a question of saying "do I want my voice chat through Live, or do I want to do it myself". It's not 100% the same question, but there are clear advantages to something like that being provided on the Microsoft side.

But it's not like voice chat where MS provided a turnkey solution from day one, it's the opposite where MS needs the content providers to do the heavy lifting tracking playback and creating meta data and then opening their APIs so SmartGlass can use them. Only there's no clear benefit to them since the SmartGlass users are by definition people who already have access to their service/existing customers. If they do have the data for that it makes more sense to release your own app, that you can charge for and that can be used no matter where you are watching your streaming video or playing your games.

And that's before we even consider whether the realtime companion data is something people actually want. In my experience people use phones and tablets to check twitter and facebook, read emails and play stuff like Angry Birds while watching TV. They don't want or need pop up video on their "second screen". If they do want to look something up, they already have IMDB and Wikipedia apps right there.

[Arwin]

Ok, so I got to test the new firmware properly now (Live wasn't up last time), and I have to say that I mostly think it's the best it's ever been so far. I like it. It's graphicalloy consistent and attractive, quick, useable, and for the first time I think it stands above the XMB. It may help that in my country apparently no-one bothers to advertise on Xbox Live, making everything even smoother (I'm hearing complaints regularly from others). But I think it's very good. Best console interface I"ve seen so far. Browser is also very good so far, very snappy, compatible, etc.

[Rotmm]

Originally Posted by Arwin

It may help that in my country apparently no-one bothers to advertise on Xbox Live...

I'm guessing that you still have a single ad-box on each (Main, Games, Music, etc) screen, even if it's only a MS advert.

The rest of what people call advertising is generally a tile pointing you to a new film release that you can rent or a piece of MW DLC. While technically that is advertising, it doesn't really feel like it to me.

[Arwin]

Originally Posted by Rotmm

I'm guessing that you still have a single ad-box on each (Main, Games, Music, etc) screen, even if it's only a MS advert.

The rest of what people call advertising is generally a tile pointing you to a new film release that you can rent or a piece of MW DLC. While technically that is advertising, it doesn't really feel like it to me.

No, some people in the US get 'real' ads, for stuff like Axe, Doritos, or whatever. I hear the podcast guys (=most big gaming podcasts) I listen to complain about it from time to time.

[Rotmm]

Originally Posted by Arwin

No, some people in the US get 'real' ads, for stuff like Axe, Doritos, or whatever..

I know, that's what I mean. While you may not get a 'proper' ad on your dash, there will still be a icon that has "Advertisement" under it. While yours may not advertise Netflix or Doritos, it may advertise Xbox Live or similar.

But that single ad box on a screen is all a US, UK, German, etc. gamer will see. The rest of the 'ads' are the tiles that link to other Xbox content, which I guess you also have.

[Brad Grenz]

I don't understand the point of splitting hairs over this. MS may care about the distinction between a paid banner and a content "promotion", but as a user I just see 7/8ths of my screen trying to sell me something.

[AzBat]

Originally Posted by Brad Grenz

I don't understand the point of splitting hairs over this. MS may care about the distinction between a paid banner and a content "promotion", but as a user I just see 7/8ths of my screen trying to sell me something.

Welcome to capitalism. You want a free market where companies are allowed to make things you want? Then you're going to have to learn to allow them be able to advertise their products so they can reach more customers. If not, then go back to the dark ages where you have more things to worry about than companies selling you products.

BTW, there is one way to turn off the ads: disconnect from Xbox Live. Problem solved.

Tommy McClain

[egoless]

Originally Posted by Rotmm

I know, that's what I mean. While you may not get a 'proper' ad on your dash, there will still be a icon that has "Advertisement" under it. While yours may not advertise Netflix or Doritos, it may advertise Xbox Live or similar.

But that single ad box on a screen is all a US, UK, German, etc. gamer will see. The rest of the 'ads' are the tiles that link to other Xbox content, which I guess you also have.

In the previous dashboard, the same tiles were there, you just saw them by pressing left or right on the dpad when on the main tile. Or they crossfaded automatically after a few seconds. In the new dash, the main tile content is static and the reset is just pushed out into smaller individual tiles.

Don't bother arguing ads since 'beta' testers split on the same argument day 1, with no convincing the other side either way. Some forget the original blades also had 'ads'. The original blades are still there, in the same layout as the original dasbhboard, and they're one button press away at any time using the guide button on the controller. Bing is one button press to the left, plug in keyboard/chatpad/kinect/controller/smartglass, and search for whatever you want without looking at 'ads'. Once you find what you want, pin it all to My Pins and then one button press down gives you a flat list without touching the rest of the dashboard.

The other hot topic was no flash in IE. I'm sure many of those posts where pecked out on iDevices.

[Rotmm]

Originally Posted by Brad Grenz

I don't understand the point of splitting hairs over this....

I'm just pointing out to Arwin that he gets the same amount of ads as everyone else ie. a single defined ad box on a dashboard screen and then content links for Xbox items.

[Rotmm]

Originally Posted by egoless

Don't bother arguing ads since 'beta' testers split on the same argument day 1, with no convincing the other side either way....

(beta tester here)

I have no problem with the ads, either the defined ones trying to sell be Coors or the ones linking to Xbox content. And I'm of the belief that the latter are more helpful in introducing me to new content than intrusive.

But of course there are those that want Xbox to be a pure gaming machine and seem unhappy with the move to becoming a media centre or whatever, and the new dash is better for them than either the blades gui (where you had to press down on the controller 4 times to launch your game) or the old NXE (where you had to scroll up one menu to launch your game).

In this one you start the 360, wait for the boot and press A to go straight into your game.... bypassing any ads, media content, links to xbox content, friends lists, etc.

[Brad Grenz]

Originally Posted by AzBat

Welcome to capitalism. You want a free market where companies are allowed to make things you want? Then you're going to have to learn to allow them be able to advertise their products so they can reach more customers. If not, then go back to the dark ages where you have more things to worry about than companies selling you products.

BTW, there is one way to turn off the ads: disconnect from Xbox Live. Problem solved.

What total bullshit. There are clearly other options. MS has specifically designed the interface in a way to maximize advertizing that simultaneously degrades the user experience. Guess what, if I turn on my PS3 it doesn't choke me out with ads and promos. It exposes all its functionality and all the content I own in an immediate way, recognizing that if I want to shop I will go to the PlayStation Store. That's having respect for your users. As far as MS is concerned, no matter how much money you give them for hardware, games and subscription services, as soon as you turn on the Xbox you've entered their retail showroom. Being able to easily use the things you own is not even a concern they have anymore. Further degrading the functionality by unplugging from the network isn't a solution, especially since the interface is still hampered by being designed for advertising.

[AzBat]

Originally Posted by Brad Grenz

What total bullshit. There are clearly other options. MS has specifically designed the interface in a way to maximize advertizing that simultaneously degrades the user experience. Guess what, if I turn on my PS3 it doesn't choke me out with ads and promos. It exposes all its functionality and all the content I own in an immediate way, recognizing that if I want to shop I will go to the PlayStation Store. That's having respect for your users. As far as MS is concerned, no matter how much money you give them for hardware, games and subscription services, as soon as you turn on the Xbox you've entered their retail showroom. Being able to easily use the things you own is not even a concern they have anymore. Further degrading the functionality by unplugging from the network isn't a solution, especially since the interface is still hampered by being designed for advertising.

Blah blah blah, I didn't say there weren't any other options. Nor did I say this was best way to serve ads either. I'm saying quit crying about the ads. If you don't like them then don't use the box or the service & go use whatever service you do like. You always have a choice. Microsoft gives you a variety of ways to get around them. Just open your eyes & look. BTW, as much as you cry foul over the ads, there are a lot of people that keep using their system & service regardless. Personally I don't have a problem with it. I have come used to it with TV, radio & even movie theaters. Everybody is fighting for eyeballs & as long as there are services that are making money there will be ads. Sony may not be taking advantage of putting ads in their dashboard, but I wouldn't be totally surprised that they sure wished they had. Who knows, maybe they will do it with their next system. Just hope you give them hell about it then.

Tommy McClain

[Squilliam]

So long as they don't advertise tampons or something ridiculous there I don't have a problem with the promotion of the services offered within the service itself.

[egoless]

Originally Posted by Rotmm

(beta tester here)...

Same here. I only quoted you because you're level-headed . I agree with you by the way. It's just that I see the other side because it reminds me of the android, linux, etc user that wants to put it together themselves. That's why I mentioned the highly praised blades are still there and the previous methods to reach content are still there with little effort, often times a single button press, to reach them.

In this one you start the 360, wait for the boot and press A to go straight into your game.... bypassing any ads, media content, links to xbox content, friends lists, etc.

Actually, you can boot directly to the game and bypass the dashboard altogether. And then, use the guide button and the blades for the rest. You can even use xbox.com to download content. Then again in the guide button, click on recently downloaded to use the content. There's even a flatfile in this same download blade of everything on your 360, so again, you can bypass the tiles.

Originally Posted by Squilliam

So long as they don't advertise tampons or something ridiculous there I don't have a problem with the promotion of the services offered within the service itself.

The recommended tiles update based on what you do on your 360, so who knows.

[Brad Grenz]

Originally Posted by AzBat

Sony may not be taking advantage of putting ads in their dashboard, but I wouldn't be totally surprised that they sure wished they had. Who knows, maybe they will do it with their next system. Just hope you give them hell about it then.

Oh, yeah. Any time a company doesn't take the opportunity to degrade the experience they offer for the chance to blast us with ads, they're probably just jealous of MS. It's not that they might care about giving their paying customers a good, uncluttered experience. No, they just didn't think of it!

I bet Apple is just kicking themselves over letting people look at a screen full of apps they own every time they turn on their phone or tablet. Don't they realize they could have sold 90% of that screen and buried everyone's apps and files under 3 layers of billboards?!?! What a bunch of maroons!

The truth is the "Metro" versions of the 360 "Experience" have been awful, no one should be happy about it and there is no sense in making excuses for Microsoft's Advertising first attitude.

[RobertR1]

It's pretty clear that MS does a lot more wrong than right by your standards. Why not just move on and ignore MS threads? On here and neogaf, you're always jumping in with tirades and arguments. You've been doing it for years now. At what point do you learn to move on, Brad?

[Brad Grenz]

I'm a paying customer of Microsoft products. I don't know why you think my consistent dissatisfaction with the way they're treating their customers somehow invalidates my opinion. Maybe if people stopped making excuses for their behavior, asking critics to "move on" and held them accountable for the way they treat their customers they would change and I wouldn't have stuff to complain about.

That they designed their interface around displaying ads is an objective fact. That paying for Gold is a terrible value is an objective fact. That their poor security left thousands of people vulnerable to FIFA hacks for a year and a half, while they blamed the victims again and again is a fact. These aren't matters of opinion and as people with an investment in the platform, we should all expect better.

[RobertR1]

My point is, why are you still a paying customer? You seem to have constant dissatisfaction to everything they do and always up to argue with anyone who likes the service.

Save your money and blood pressure and move on?

[Shifty Geezer]

Originally Posted by AzBat

Blah blah blah, I didn't say there weren't any other options. Nor did I say this was best way to serve ads either. I'm saying quit crying about the ads. If you don't like them then don't use the box or the service & go use whatever service you do like.

That's true of every complaint anyone has about anything, making much discussion pointless. Instead, we let everyone express their POV including criticisms, whether it's over how lousy a web browser is, the naffness of controls in a game, a complaint about framerates or tearing, hardware prices, etc.

Trying to shut Brad up because you don't agree with him is out of order and contrary to other discussions you're a part of. I guess you're having a bad day?

[Shifty Geezer]

Originally Posted by RobertR1

My point is, why are you still a paying customer? You seem to have constant dissatisfaction to everything they do and always up to argue with anyone who likes the service.

He's presumably got a vested interest in the platform in terms of library and stuff. It also didn't start that way IIRC. No different to me constantly grumbling about Sony's services, but I still use PS3 because costs to shift platforms, fiscal and non-fiscal, mean the economic choice is to stick. But I still complain hoping they'll change things for the better, and sometimes they do. Although in economics the principal is that the consumer can manage products and services by switching, it's rarely as simple as that, but consumer feedback can help change a service to the way the consumer wants it.

Maybe XB owners are seeing a pattern in Brad's behaviour that I haven't noticed, causing them to be heavy-handed in response, but I personally don't see the problems with him complaining any more than I litter the forum with gripes and whingings.

[bkilian]

Originally Posted by Brad Grenz

I'm a paying customer of Microsoft products. I don't know why you think my consistent dissatisfaction with the way they're treating their customers somehow invalidates my opinion. Maybe if people stopped making excuses for their behavior, asking critics to "move on" and held them accountable for the way they treat their customers they would change and I wouldn't have stuff to complain about.

That they designed their interface around displaying ads is an objective fact. That paying for Gold is a terrible value is an objective fact. That their poor security left thousands of people vulnerable to FIFA hacks for a year and a half, while they blamed the victims again and again is a fact. These aren't matters of opinion and as people with an investment in the platform, we should all expect better.

Vote with your dollars Brad. If you keep giving them money, you won't change their behavior. Also, your self evident "facts" are either misinformed or opinion. I'm perfectly happy with the Gold value proposition, as are a lot of people, which makes your "objective fact" very suspect.

[NRP]

Actually, I find the ads on the 360's UI surprisingly unobtrusive. They've done a pretty good job balancing this issue imo.

[Shifty Geezer]

Originally Posted by bkilian

Vote with your dollars Brad. If you keep giving them money, you won't change their behavior.

It's not as simple as that. If he chooses not to subscribe to Live, he doesn't get to play online. If he chooses to switch to another platform, he's lost all his games and has a considerable cost in buying a new device and library. The economy of a change is such that he's possibly stuck with his choice, which is often the way when someone buys a product that doesn't work out for them, like a car or TV - they wish they had bought another but can't afford to change now. In such cases all a person can do is voice their disagreement with the purchase, possibly in the hopes someone will listen and change things for the preference, but more typically just as a rant.

That said, this line:

Originally Posted by Brad

That paying for Gold is a terrible value is an objective fact.

shows Brad is definitely having a good old fashioned rant and isn't speaking sense. A service with a subscription fee is always of subjective value.

[RancidLunchmeat]

Originally Posted by Brad Grenz

That paying for Gold is a terrible value is an objective fact.

Uhh, what? I think Gold is a GREAT value. It's hard to take somebody seriously when they can't determine fact from opinion.

That their poor security left thousands of people vulnerable to FIFA hacks for a year and a half, while they blamed the victims again and again is a fact. These aren't matters of opinion and as people with an investment in the platform, we should all expect better.

Also hard to take somebody seriously when they're talking about security flaws on FIFA for the 360 with no mention of PSN's repeated failures.

Oh, and I don't ever even pay attention to the ads, except for the ones for MS products that I actually take a moment to look at to see if there's been something released I want to purchase.

But, right. The ads have made the user experience WORSE FOR EVERYBODY because you don't like them.

Give me a break. This is the most absurd rant I've seen in a long time. If you don't like the fact that MS has changed their business model (starting with the 360 and now moving on with the launch of Win8) to that of a service-based, content provider, then as was mentioned: don't use their products.

If you couldn't see this coming, you have nobody to blame but yourself. Most of us knew, and some of us (like myself) repeatedly said in thread after thread that MS was pushing to own the living room.

What did you think that meant? It meant providing content, at a cost.

This is really an unbelievable discussion.