[almighty]

Originally Posted by Shifty Geezer

So how is trying torchlight on PC "dismissing a method I've never used.

You have not used third party software that hacks the support for pads in.


Its much much better the crap built in to games.

I used to think like that about kb/m but now having got so used to them they dominate every game genre except driving, fighting and sports

[fearsomepirate]

I, like Shifty, switched from PC to console. I played PC games from 1989-2003. In 2003, I got so angry at the hoops I had to jump through to make NWN run that I bought a Gamecube. A couple years later, I got so angry at WinXP that I formatted my HDD and installed Ubuntu. The next computer I bought was a 2007 MacBook, which I adore. When I passed the written exams for the doctoral program, I bought a PS3 (I think is was $199 used).

It does seem that what you spend on hardware, you make back in savings on software, especially if you don't build a high-end rig.

Personally, I am done with Windows, so that means I am done with PC gaming. The only way I'd consider buying a PC is if either MS drops their crap and creates a *nix-based OS, or if Apple totally flubs everything and ruins what they've got going now.

Especially now at the total ass end of this generation, a $400 PC will destroy a PS3

That's about twice what a PS3 costs. And will it still be able to run games once the next-gen consoles hit. After all, if you built a $400 PC in 2005 (2012 dollars), it would destroy a PS2, but it would have a tough time with Modern Warfare 2.

[Shifty Geezer]

Originally Posted by almighty

I used to think like that about kb/m but now having got so used to them they dominate every game genre except driving, fighting and sports

It's not about destroying the competition - I don't play competitively. It's about being comfortable. I hate the disassociation between mouse and avatar as you get in Torchlight. I also like sitting back and using dual thumbsticks in shooters. Some implementations leave a bit to be desired, like Borderlands where fine aiming is very hard, but I don't want to be sat up at a desk to play, or lounging on a sofa with a mouse or trackpad evne if they give perfect accuracy. I like the dual-stick+button interface and want to use it. Thankfully I can on plenty of PC games. Sadly I can't on all games, and as it's an afterthought for PC developers rather than a major target, it'll be hit-and-miss. If there are utilities that can help tweak a game to work with controllers, all the worse IMO because that means devs won't bother and they'll leave the tweaks to do the job, which is added faf I just don't want. I'm crossing my fingers that Steam or Win 8/Live mandates controller support giving gamers the choice of both on PC.

It's worth noting I have a Dual Shock 2 to PC adaptor round here somewhere and used it with Star Control some time back. although a Sega Master System controller on Amiga was the pinnacle.

[mrcorbo]

Originally Posted by Shifty Geezer

So how is trying torchlight on PC "dismissing a method I've never used"?

That's subjective. KB+M is different. Some people, myself included, don't prefer KB+M in a lot of games. That's why knowing controllers aren't always supported in games we'd like to play is another consideration when contemplating switching to PC.

It is exceedingly rare for PC games whose control schemes could map well to a controller to not have controller support. Mass Effect 3 is the only one that comes to mind, in fact. The lack of controller support in that is flat out bizarre.

For games where KB+M are commonly considered to be the superior control method (Diablo-style games, RTS games etc.) it is more rare. I suspect, though, that the number of gamers who are interested in games in these genres that would be disappointed that they didn't support gamepad controls is dwarfed by the number of players who would be pleased that, unlike the consoles, the PC offers KB+M support for these types of games.

[poopypoo]

Originally Posted by fearsomepirate

Personally, I am done with Windows, so that means I am done with PC gaming. The only way I'd consider buying a PC is if either MS drops their crap and creates a *nix-based OS, or if Apple totally flubs everything and ruins what they've got going now.

That's about twice what a PS3 costs. And will it still be able to run games once the next-gen consoles hit. After all, if you built a $400 PC in 2005 (2012 dollars), it would destroy a PS2, but it would have a tough time with Modern Warfare 2.

I think it's fine if you don't want a gaming PC. To me it seems like a non-question because if I am going to build a PC which surfs nets, does web design, and watches movies, all I have to do is make sure it has a proper PCIE slot, and when I decide to spend $120, it becomes a console as well. But I totally respect if you'd rather have a console. They're simple, and fairly cheap, and they buy a lot of game dev houses so they won;t make PC games. Regardless, I only posted what I posted because the thread title is "what's the price...". I didn't realize it was just another Console vs. PC thread.

[poopypoo]

Originally Posted by mrcorbo

It is exceedingly rare for PC games whose control schemes could map well to a controller to not have controller support. Mass Effect 3 is the only one that comes to mind, in fact. The lack of controller support in that is flat out bizarre.

I'm glad you brought this up. Seems like a major piece of FUD in here. Who doesn't use a Joystick remapping program anyway? It's like having all the benefits of a console but total freedom. If it's too hard, then just use a console.

[Sigfried1977]

Originally Posted by almighty

You have not used third party software that hacks the support for pads in.


Its much much better the crap built in to games.

No, it's most definitely not better. Stuff like Xpadder may be able to map your mouse movement to a thumb stick, but it's not gonna offer the subtle aim assists of a proper controller implementation (which is rather crucial for shooting with a tiny thumb stick imo, especially if you aren't in it for the glory). It's not gonna provide analog player movement either. Your left thumb stick simply becomes a WASD setup.

That said, unless controller support doesn't make a lick of sense in a game, it's usually implemented, and it's generally implemented well. (just plug in your 360 controller and you're done.)

[liolio]

HOnestly when it comes to control I.m happy with some PC games not considering pad, for quiet some genre is way poorer than Kb+M
Still I wonder there could be innovation on the matter, like a portable devive that would have say a trackball and quiet some keys put together in an ergonomic fashion (may be something akin to fighting sticks that would rest on your knees).
May have been done without success already, some PC games require quiet some concentration and I would suspect players like to be in an office like situation.

[poopypoo]

Yeah, when it comes to PC-exclusive shooters, I can understand, controller is just going to fail. Of course every console port is too easy w kb and mouse, so it goes both ways. For other genres, I can't see why you can't map a controller. If anything, it's lazy ports that are sometimes buggy when you map the middle mouse button and stuff.

[Davros]

cant believe some people are complaining that some games not having gamepad support and that is somehow inferior to a console where there are zero games offering kb+mouse support zero games offering support for gamepads with more than 12 buttons, zero support for joysticks, zero support for trackballs ect, ect ect,

just for fun ive just played borderlands 2 on a steering wheel

[Arwin]

Actually not zero

[Davros]

Well I'm guessing, seeing as i dont own a console

[Rodéric]

PC = expensive versatile machine, cheap games, any controller.
Consoles = cheap game/multimedia machine, expensive games, whatever controller comes with the console. (With few exceptions.)

[Davros]

cheapest pc at newegg was $299 - you can game on it
If you want more performance spend more money, the choice is yours

[Shifty Geezer]

Originally Posted by mrcorbo

For games where KB+M are commonly considered to be the superior control method (Diablo-style games, RTS games etc.) it is more rare. I suspect, though, that the number of gamers who are interested in games in these genres that would be disappointed that they didn't support gamepad controls is dwarfed by the number of players who would be pleased that, unlike the consoles, the PC offers KB+M support for these types of games.

Sure, the number of existing PC players who'd want a controller for some games might be miniscule. But that's why they choose to game on PC. For others, where the subjective preference for controller type happens to prefer controllers, a (perceived) lack of support on PC for their controller of preference is going to discourage their migration to PC.

It'd also be nice if, when utilities or tech are available that a non-PC gamer is unaware of such as controller remapping, the response was positive information giving and not, "Yeah, well, KB+M is better, so we don't care. Oh yeah, well, it's easy because you can map anything to any controller anyway with these utilities you don't know exist." What's wrong with, "aha, it turns out there are some very useful utilities by which you can map many controls between games including thumbsticks yadayada"?

Originally Posted by Davros

cant believe some people are complaining that some games not having gamepad support and that is somehow inferior to a console

No-one said it was inferior. Only different. It's like asking if a restaurant serves fish, and upon learning it doesn't, saying, "Oh, well I like fish so I'll maybe go with a different restaurant." To which the person giving the info responds with, "well steak is better anyway - you should eat steak."

Why is it so hard for PC gamers to appreciate different folk can have different tastes without it being a matter of superior/inferior, just different?

[mrcorbo]

Originally Posted by Shifty Geezer

Sure, the number of existing PC players who'd want a controller for some games might be miniscule. But that's why they choose to game on PC. For others, where the subjective preference for controller type happens to prefer controllers, a (perceived) lack of support on PC for their controller of preference is going to discourage their migration to PC.

All things being equal *I* prefer a controller to mouse and KB since I sit in front of a computer all day at work. Given this, I can only think of the one case (Mass Effect 3) where a game on PC didn't support gamepad controls and where I didn't feel that KB+M controls were a much more natural fit for that game. And, since I had the choice, I bought that on 360.

I have to admit, I'm kind of lost as to who the subject of the thread is. A hypothetical average console owner or you personally? A lot of the issues you raise seem to revolve around your personal preferences, but then you have used language to indicate you're speaking of the group of console owners as a whole. I see a marked difference between the former and the latter.

[Dr Evil]

Originally Posted by mrcorbo

I can only think of the one case (Mass Effect 3) where a game on PC didn't support gamepad controls.

The previous Mass Effects also didn't support pad and Bioshock 2 dropped the support, when Bioshock 1 had it. I've read that Infinite will have it though.

[Billy Idol]

Originally Posted by Davros

cant believe some people are complaining that some games not having gamepad support and that is somehow inferior to a console where there are zero games offering kb+mouse support zero games offering support for gamepads with more than 12 buttons, zero support for joysticks, zero support for trackballs ect, ect ect,

just for fun ive just played borderlands 2 on a steering wheel

No one said it is inferior to consoles. It was just about comfortable gaming and options. Furthermore, I guess with consoles showing there age in the most brutal way (i.e. graphics) more and more people switch from PS360 to PC, thus more and more people want their prefered control scheme, thus more and more developer can maximize their profit if they include such an options. It doesn not matter in this case which scheme is more natural.

Thinking about it, I have here the first real negative point about switching to PC from actual consoles:

you get spoiled for next gen. Each and every single PC game on max at 1080p with good framerate and often PhysX. Problem is that you get used so fast to such glory. What happens with next gen? I am expecting sensational never before seen entertainment with new PS720. I am already mentally preparing for a big let down in the sense of "already seen that"! Real issue!

PS: I guess reloading by handbrake and shooting with wheel

[Shifty Geezer]

Originally Posted by mrcorbo

All things being equal *I* prefer a controller to mouse and KB since I sit in front of a computer all day at work. Given this, I can only think of the one case (Mass Effect 3) where a game on PC didn't support gamepad controls and where I didn't feel that KB+M controls were a much more natural fit for that game. And, since I had the choice, I bought that on 360.

This is where it's subjective. I really hate KB+M for Torchlight-like games.

I have to admit, I'm kind of lost as to who the subject of the thread is. A hypothetical average console owner or you personally?

It's a hypothetical console gamers using me as a representative to narrow down the range of variables to something workable, who's also got this consideration in RL. The target doesn't really matter though as the intention is just to identify the considerations that a gamer would face in picking between PC and console. Different folk will have different perception of value and ergonomics, so there's no one answer as to which is the better platform for someone.

[almighty]

Originally Posted by mrcorbo

I have to admit, I'm kind of lost as to who the subject of the thread is. A hypothetical average console owner or you personally? A lot of the issues you raise seem to revolve around your personal preferences

That's exactly what I've been saying...

[Gubbi]

Trying to get this back on topic, here's is what I've spent on hardware for PC gaming and consoles since 2000. My PC pulls double duty as a workstation and I don't consider the CPU and RAM upgrades as gaming related upgrades. The graphics cards purchased are exclusively to play games.

Consoles:
XBOX: 2500 DKK
PS2: 1800 DKK
XBOX: 1200 DKK
360 Premium: 3600 DKK
360 Elite: 2700 DKK
360 250GB: 1800 DKK
Total: 13600 DKK ($2310)

First XBOX died, the 360 Premium RRODed and the elite was acquired when the premium was being refurbished, elite died after I tinkered with it (took it apart).

PC:
GF4 4200ti: 2000 DKK
ATI 9700Pro: 3800 DKK
GF 6800: 4000 DKK
AMD 4890: 1900 DKK
AMD 7970: 3200 DKK
Total: 14900 DKK ($2520)

I've sold two consoles (XBOX and 360 premium) and gifted three of the above GPUs away.

In the XBOX era I roughly played twice as many hours on console as on PC, with the 360 the ratio is 5-10 times , largely because I don't play multiplayer FPS games on PC anymore. As my gaming habits gravitate towards consoles, my PC upgrade cycle has become longer, I used to upgrade PC hardware every year (1996-2001).

The money spent on hardware is roughly the same, but consoles offer much better value for me because they see much higher utilization than my PC.

Cheers

[almighty]

Originally Posted by Gubbi

Trying to get this back on topic, here's is what I've spent on hardware for PC gaming and consoles since 2000. My PC pulls double duty as a workstation and I don't consider the CPU and RAM upgrades as gaming related upgrades. The graphics cards purchased are exclusively to play games.

Consoles:
XBOX: 2500 DKK
PS2: 1800 DKK
XBOX: 1200 DKK
360 Premium: 3600 DKK
360 Elite: 2700 DKK
360 250GB: 1800 DKK
Total: 13600 DKK ($2310)

First XBOX died, the 360 Premium RRODed and the elite was acquired when the premium was being refurbished, elite died after I tinkered with it (took it apart).

PC:
GF4 4200ti: 2000 DKK
ATI 9700Pro: 3800 DKK
GF 6800: 4000 DKK
AMD 4890: 1900 DKK
AMD 7970: 3200 DKK
Total: 14900 DKK ($2520)

I've sold two consoles (XBOX and 360 premium) and gifted three of the above GPUs away.

In the XBOX era I roughly played twice as many hours on console as on PC, with the 360 the ratio is 5-10 times , largely because I don't play multiplayer FPS games on PC anymore. As my gaming habits gravitate towards consoles, my PC upgrade cycle has become longer, I used to upgrade PC hardware every year (1996-2001).

The money spent on hardware is roughly the same, but consoles offer much better value for me because they see much higher utilization than my PC.

Cheers

Nice comparison, would you say the extra couple hundred spent on PC hardware was claimed back through cheaper games?

[Gubbi]

Originally Posted by almighty

Nice comparison, would you say the extra couple hundred spent on PC hardware was claimed back through cheaper games?

It is two very different buying patterns if I have to be honest.

My GPU upgrades always coincide with a key PC title. The 9700PRO was bought to play Half life 2 and Far Cry, the 6800 to play Doom 3, the 4890 to play Fallout 3 and Crysis, the 7970 to play Skyrim (and because I was sick of the wind tunnel level noise the 4890 produced).

On the 360, about one in three games is purchased at launch, for the rest of the games, they're usually a year old and half price. Purchased at launch: Gears 1/2/3, Halo 3/Reach/Anniversary, MW 1&2, Oblivion, Forza 2/3/4. So thats 12 games a launch prices and the remaining 20-25 at half price (or less).

In the past decade I've bought 10-15 PC titles and 55-60 consoles titles. The average price of a PC title is thus much higher when you facter in hardware cost on a per game basis. However, comparing my PC habits with my console habits would be comparing apples to oranges.

You should compare my console habits with a PC gamers habits.

Cheers

[scooby_dooby]

Originally Posted by Shifty Geezer

That's subjective. KB+M is different. Some people, myself included, don't prefer KB+M in a lot of games. That's why knowing controllers aren't always supported in games we'd like to play is another consideration when contemplating switching to PC.

It's about embracing the platform, I'm the same way, always preferred controllers, but with Borderlands 2 I embraced the KB+M controls, an after 2 weeks I can safely say I don't want to go back.

In terms of cost, they're not comparable. It's quite simply 600-700 to get a decent gaming rig. Period. If you'r purely a budget focused gamer, how can you beat the customized, subsidized console hardware?

PC's bring a ton of other benefits that are *different* than console, if you're simply turning a blind eye to them, and unwilling to embrace the platform, then just forget about it and get a console.

[scooby_dooby]

Regarding software and Steam sales, the reason is keeps coming up is because these sales work.

The deals are so good, and constantly getting advertised, that you inevitable end up buying many more games than you did before.

Embrace the platform and it will happen. We're not making this shit up!

The variety you get on Steam is just amazing as well, compared to Console, you can pick up tons and tons of amazing games in th $3-20 price range, games that just don't exist anywhere else.

And how about cloud based saves?? Steam syncs all your saves across the device, so I can game on my Work Computer at lunch, my Home Work computer, my Ultrabook, OR my wife's Ultrabook, all with the same save fies and game library. Where the hell is THAT value with consoles? I know XBL has cloud saves, but it's no comparison to the ease of Steam.

Playing FTL on the beach sipping a Corona is simply unquantifiable, and will never be offered by a Console

You're lugging your console and discs around conencting to different screens, I just have a box in each room with Steam installed, and a 3lb Ultrabook with discrete GPU that I can carry anywhere I want. Pretty sure my solution is alot easier. How much $$$ that is worth though, is entirely subjective... how much is it worth to you to settle with you sub-optimal solution of physically lugging hardware around the house and hooking up cables?