[Grall]

Thought this discussion might be fun to break out of the youtube thread. I wouldn't want to wreck it - even though it has grown rather obnoxiously large by now.

Originally Posted by UniversalTruth

there is nothing paranoic to be one of the different who don't accept the mainstream media and government bullshit.

There's a distinct difference about not believing media and gov't bullshit, and unquestioningly swallowing non-media and non-gov't bullshit, like you are.

...Assuming you're not simply trolling of course. This is a distinct possibility I admit, and hopefully that is indeed the case, as otherwise you'd have to be a complete idiot, considering the nonsense you've already spouted.

They didn't have sufficient technology to do it

What exactly would you say was lacking, technology-wise, to send people to the moon in the late 60s and early 70s? Considering that we tracked the lunar lander actually LANDING on the moon, and triangulated the astronauts' voices coming from there, I don't get why anyone would say we didn't have the tech to go there when we in fact did go there.

The artifacts left from past expeditions are still there on the moon's surface, as are all the tracks left in the soil. We can see them with the Lunar Reconnaisance Orbiter probe, which is currently orbiting the moon. There are also laser reflectors sitting on the surface, left there by the astronauts, which we use all the time in science experiments.

So your view that we didn't go there because we couldn't is pretty much completely bogus I'm afraid, and you're an ignorant fool for believing the way you do.

and given how intense the radiation is on the Moon

How intense is that radiation, do you believe?

May I remind you, that people have spent half a year if not longer aboard various space stations orbiting our planet; the moonlanding astronauts were only in space for a week and a half, roughly.

I suspect that even today it will be extremely difficult for them to send a crew on the Moon.

"Difficult", how? What would be so difficult about it? We have all the tech needed, we've had it for half a century now.

False, then we can expect the beginning of a New age, not like the mainstream media tries to disinform and confuse us that it would be the end...

Err... It's not mainstream media that claims the world will end in december this year.

What "New" age is it you expect to begin then? ...Other than the calendar year 2013, of course.

But that actually was exactly what the mainstream was forced to believe. The enlightened knew even then that it was false.

The media was forced to believe that the earth is flat? The enlightened know that it's false that the earth is round, is that what you're saying?

Holy crap man. That this planet is round has been known since at least the time of the ancient Greeks, if not even earlier than that. In the modern era it's absolutely indisputable that it is in fact round, since we've circumnavigated the globe using airplanes, spacecraft and such whilst photo-documenting everything.

That the earth is round can also be proven by things like beyond line-of-sight radio transmissions and other methods.

Actually there are many examples from history when the arrogant bourgeois didn't want to let a given knowledge reach the masses.

Perhaps there's a language barrier present here, but if you are saying what I think you're saying, you're a complete retard. Sorry! It's true, though.

[rpg.314]

I'll bite this apple.

What are your reasons for believing that we didn't land on the moon?

[UniversalTruth]

Originally Posted by Ike Turner

...who thinks that we never landed on the moon and that the WTC towers were taken down by TNT..

Rafael Correa - an atypical ruler

In response to Hugo Chavez's accusations that George Bush is Satan, Correa said it was unfair to the devil.

http://translate.google.sk/translate...5BA%2F&act=url

(bow) (bow) (bow)

[Billy Idol]

That made me laugh...

[UniversalTruth]

[UniversalTruth]

Do you think they really said those things.

In 1992, U.S. Secretary of State James Baker told their Congress "We spent over 30 thousand billion dollars to win the Cold War against the Soviet Union and its satellites in order to elicit material and spiritual collapse."

In 1947, the beginning of the "Cold War", the first civilian CIA director Allen Welsh Dulles said:

"We will throw all the gold of the U.S, the full force of U.S. for deception and stupidity of the people of the socialist world. Unnoticed, we will replace human values ​​with fake ones. How? We'll find like-minded people in these countries and Russia. We will deploy a grand scale corrupts work, will tear out the social nature of literature, will encourage authors to inculcate in man cult of sex, violence, sadism, betrayal- that immorality. We need writings mocking naturalness and integrity as archaic remnants. Vulgarity, arrogance, lies and deceit, drunkenness and drug abuse, animal fear among people, shamelessness, reporting, and many vices out in man to move. This will shake generation after generation, will cause erosion and will corrupt youth. We will create a man with the consumptive psyche of a simple person. All this will be done under the motto "Protection of human right and civil liberties."

Actually, when walking down the street, when talking with some people, I feel much of this is absolutely true.

[UniversalTruth]

Such a pity no one is interested in discussing some really real and serious stuff.
A little tease, unfortunately it is quite sad but... that's what comments I find while browsing.

Via google translate:

About Obama and Romney:

---Grab one, hit the other- these are two sides of the same coin. And Americans are rotated in the same vicious circle like us, with no chance of escape if they don't open their eyes and rise...

---MASTER:
Absolutely right.
But the case is a bit more complicated. Zionist elite, of course, has already determined who the new president will be. If it is Romney there is a good reason to think that he will be styler that will spark the long-awaited major war. Then they will transfer everything- all the blame. They will show what he has spoken on media before the election, what an error only occurred, etc...
Hitler was put off in the same way by the same people, supposedly very naively, then he was demonized.
Fools watching Discovery believe that almost some a crazy has aspired the power and... see it ...... Behind him stood the same capital that is now behind Romney.

---Great sorcerer of Mexico has already said it will be Romney. The joke aside, MASTER is right about the war.

Are we really that close to a major war?
Sorry, couldn't resist.

[Grall]

Lol... Those dastardly zionists elites, choosing our presidents in advance. Of course, PROVING there's a zionist elite picking presidents in advance is impossible. Nice little bit of circular reasoning there...

[UniversalTruth]

Originally Posted by Grall

Those dastardly zionists elites, choosing our presidents in advance.

Yup, and not only choosing but killing them after that because some of them wanted to change the world order. Obvisously because for these bankers, etc, it is not acceptable.

Originally Posted by Grall

PROVING there's a zionist elite picking presidents in advance is impossible.

Really? And you think this BECAUSE?

Actually, I don't believe you think it. But you act like one of those lawyers who try to protect someone's interests.

[Grall]

Originally Posted by UniversalTruth

Yup, and not only choosing but killing them after that because some of them wanted to change the world order.

Right. And where is your proof of that? Shit, any evidence whatsoever, regardless how intangible...

Really? And you think this BECAUSE?

BECAUSE it's like trying to disprove santa claus. Prove there isn't a zionist elite running the world - can't be done. However, stating there's a zionist elite running the world, and then using your own supposition as justification of itself completes the circle. Which means it's bullshit, from one end to the other.

...Why a zionist elite by the way. Why not a serbian elite, or a lapp elite, or a rastafari elite? No, it's those fucking jews always, isn't it! They have to go meddle in everything and hold the reins of power from the shadows. Come on, say it!

But you act like one of those lawyers who try to protect someone's interests.

No, I'm not. But you act like one of those nutcases with their heads so squirrely and full of conspiracy theories and plain crazy that they can't tell reality from fiction, that you often see on internet forums.

[green.pixel]

There is one elite running the world: banking.

[UniversalTruth]

Of course, there is. It is essentially ridiculous to claim something different. You know that in these times what drives world is money. And given that few percent of the population owns more than all the others combined... You can imagine. Money is power and no government can do anything without powerful sponsors behind/ above them.
Politicians are workers like all of us, with the difference that they are slightly higher in the hierachy but above them... that's terrifying.

BTW, Romney didn't win, which is a huge surprise to me but that doesn't mean that we won't see more wars for petrol, etc.

But his face after losing the election was quite surprising too. Personally for him, it hurts a lot.

[UniversalTruth]

Originally Posted by rpg.314

I'll bite this apple.

What are your reasons for believing that we didn't land on the moon?

My reasons would be something very similar to this:

Polls taken in various locations have shown that between 6% and 20% of Americans surveyed believe that the manned landings were faked, rising to 28% in Russia.

Even as late as 2001, the major television network Fox broadcast a documentary named Conspiracy Theory: Did We Land on the Moon? claiming NASA faked the first landing in 1969 to win the Space Race.

Kaysing maintains that, despite close monitoring by the USSR, it would have been easier for NASA to fake the Moon landings, thereby guaranteeing success, than for NASA to really go there. He claimed that the chance of a successful manned landing on the Moon was calculated to be 0.017%...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon_la...iracy_theories

Too many questions and doubts without a reasonable explanation. But some have the biggest interest to make people believe in it. It's the same as separating people into different religions, etc, when God can be unique and has no man appearance.

[Grall]

Polls don't mean shit.

That "documentary" (word used extremely loosely) has been thoroughly debunked as being not just flawed, but just outright wrong on just about everything it mentions.

You can't calculate the probability of something as complex as a moon landing, so that percentage you cite don't mean shit either. Also, appealing to authority and dropping names of some mad conspiracist is a fallacy, and don't lend your position any credence.

[NRP]

Grall,
Please don't humor the troll. You should know better.

[Dr Evil]

You give him too much credit NRP. That is not a troll, that is something else. I self sensor myself from saying more.

[UniversalTruth]

Originally Posted by Grall

mad conspiracist

I wouldn't call anyone mad or insane, or crazy, or giving any definitions just because I am short of arguments and I have to emphasize my words somehow... This is like calling anyone else mad because he doesn't share your point of view.

So, now, would you be so kind to give us a clue why we have "conspiracy" theories for this and few other things, and for many many more events in history, etc there are not any?

[Grall]

There's not even a shred of actual evidence that we did NOT land on the moon. Zip, nada, nothing!

All you (and other mad conspiracists) have come up with can, and have been easily debunked. Stupid shit like flags supposedly waving in a breeze (hard vacuum on the moon + 1/10th the gravity explains that one), diverging shadows supposedly due to studio lights actually are produced by camera parallax and can be replicated here on earth and so on. It's all bullshit through and through.

Just because YOU SAY that a moon landing is more easily faked than actually carried out DOESN'T MEAN IT WAS FAKED. Holy crap.

(And before you say it, yes there is a lot of evidence we DID land on the moon, including several hundred kilos of moon rocks, as well as many many many photos of the moon landing sites, the vehicle tracks, footprints and artefacts we left there, as well as scientific instruments like laser reflectors that are still used to measure things like the distance between the earth and the moon. Not to mention tens of thousands of people who designed and built the rockets, the LEMs and other equipment, and the yet more tens of thousands of people who witnessed the launches, reams and reams of of taped radar measurements tracking the vehicles on their trajectories, on and on and on...)

[UniversalTruth]

Originally Posted by Grall

1/10th the gravity

Is it really 1/10th?

Originally Posted by Grall

Just because YOU SAY that a moon landing is more easily faked than actually carried out DOESN'T MEAN IT WAS FAKED. Holy crap.

Holy crap. You make it sound like it is the most important thing for you to prove that it was done. I wonder why...

Originally Posted by Grall

including several hundred kilos of moon rocks

As far as I understand no other missions in space brought so much alien material. As a fact, it already raises doubt. Why so much?
Think Mars as an example. How much material from Mars which should be much more interesting from scientific point of view we do have as of today?!

Originally Posted by Grall

scientific instruments like laser reflectors that are still used to measure things like the distance between the earth and the moon

Ok, but you ignore the possibility that those can be put there by unmanned means.

Originally Posted by Grall

, as well as many many many photos of the moon landing sites, the vehicle tracks, footprints and artefacts we left there, as well as...

...Not to mention tens of thousands of people who designed and built the rockets, the LEMs and other equipment, and the yet more tens of thousands of people who witnessed the launches, reams and reams of of taped radar measurements tracking the vehicles on their trajectories, on and on and on...)

I've already told you. Just think about religions and how easy it is to manipulate people. Can you imagine all those billions of people who are forced to believe in something different and thus separated into different groups?
I think that most of the population doesn't even know what the origin of mankind is and does think that we are either product of apes evolution, or created as described in the main religion books.
And given that most of those people are americans and it is kind of national pride, makes it even easier. For the Moon landing...

Originally Posted by Grall

You can't calculate the probability of something as complex as a moon landing.

Yeah, the more complex it is, the higher the probability of errors and failures. Why do you think it can't be calculated? Only because it is complex?
And why would such a big entertainment corporation like Fox broadcast movies about the hoax? Because they have nothing else to do? Where are the conspiracy theories about The First man in space, or Mars landers?

[Grall]

Originally Posted by UniversalTruth

Is it really 1/10th?

Could be a sixth too, I can't remember and too lazy to google. It's somewhere in that neighborhood. Why do you ask?

Holy crap. You make it sound like it is the most important thing for you to prove that it was done. I wonder why...

Of course it's important. It's as important as say, countering holocaust denialists, because the truth is more important than bullshit lies.

As far as I understand no other missions in space brought so much alien material. As a fact, it already raises doubt. Why so much?

Lol, wut? Why would you doubt something as elementary as this? If you go someplace like the moon, of course you'd bring samples back home with you. Most scientists and researchers bemoan the fact not MORE was brought back, not that we brought so much! (Which we didn't really, remember there were what, five missions that landed there (with 13 missing its mark, so to speak).

How much material from Mars which should be much more interesting from scientific point of view we do have as of today?!

It's much harder to bring stuff back from Mars, which is probably why we haven't done that yet. It's a much bigger planet with a lot more gravity, and robot probes are not awesome at roaming around collecting stuff. All the vehicles we've sent there move almost literally at a snail's pace, collecting any decent sample size would take an age. Not to mention the issues of getting it all back home again.

Ok, but you ignore the possibility that those can be put there by unmanned means.

Please. Give some proof they were placed by unmanned means. Like I already said: that it COULD have been faked doesn't mean it was! All - and I do mean ALL - available evidence points at human beings went there, and placed those experiments at the precise sites where we said beforehand they would be placed.

Occam's razor and all of that you know.

I've already told you. Just think about religions and how easy it is to manipulate people.

What a bullshit strawman argument. A moon hoax conspiracy would by neccessity require the participation of THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE. All of whom would have to shut the fuck up about all of it for fourty, fifty years! And they all have, AMAZING!

Or maybe it is that there was no conspiracy, and we actually went there like it looked like we did. Only dumbshit stupid people (or fucking nutters) would disbelieve things they have NO REASON to disbelieve, WITH NO EVIDENCE TO BACK UP THEIR DISBELIEF.

I think that most of the population doesn't even know what the origin of mankind is and does think that we are either product of apes evolution, or created as described in the main religion books.

Lol, you going to say we were planted here by space aliens aren't you?

Anyway, if we did not evolve from apes, how come quite literally 95-ish percent (if not more) of our DNA is the exact same as found in other primates? Hell, we have genes in common with BACTERIA for crying out loud, if that's not evidence of evolution I don't know what would be.

Why do you think it can't be calculated? Only because it is complex?

Why? Because it makes no sense. How would you possibly calculate the success probability of a manned moon mission anyway? It'd just be grabbing figures out of thin air.

And why would such a big entertainment corporation like Fox broadcast movies about the hoax?

Fox panders to the stupid, the uneducated and the ignorant, particularly those who mistrust things like educational facilities (colleges, universities), educated people (scientists, "liberals", "elitists"). Seeing there is a market for this shit, they'll sell it; they're doing focus groups to test for things like this you know. It's as simple as that; they're in it for the money, not truth, not balance, not anything other than profit for themselves.

[Mariner]

Wait a minute. You're telling me that Capricorn One wasn't a documentary?

[zed]

Obviously mate, theres no way they would of been able to dispose of OJ in real life

[Chalnoth]

This thread demands a video.

[Chalnoth]

And for some coolness, we now have pictures of the moon landing sites courtesy of the Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter:
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/LR...llo-sites.html

[nutball]

Originally Posted by Chalnoth

And for some coolness, we now have pictures of the moon landing sites courtesy of the Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter:
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/LR...llo-sites.html

It's cool to you and I, but to anyone convinced that the Apollo Moon landings were faked, these are clearly Photoshopped. And the fact that NASA released them must prove that NASA are getting worried that the conspiracy theorists are getting close to proving the whole scam, etc., etc. Ad nauseum.

On a related subject, I hope US tax payers are pleased that their hard-earned tax dollars are having to be wasted on debunking nonsense:

http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/2012.html

Tax dollars that could be better spent exploring the Universe, rather than compensating for chronic under-funding of Critical Thinking 101 at in the education system.