[vetz]

Got a tip that some of you might be interested in this and to make a thread here on Beyond3D.

Basically I have started a series on Youtube that do a comparison among different API's on PC games from the dawn of 3D acceleration.

Newest episode number 15: Descent on Nvidia NV1, 3DFX and DOS software


API(s) in this episode:
NVLib
Glide
Software


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4l_2Bqbi9Q


Previous episodes:

• Episode 1 - Indycar Racing II - Rendition Speedy3D vs SVGA Software
  Episode 2 - SODA Offroad Racing - Rendition Redline vs DirectDraw software
  Episode 3 - Whiplash / Fatal Racing - 3DFX/Rendition/S3 Virge/SVGA Software
  Episode 4 - Virtua Cop - Nvidia NV1 vs DirectDraw software
  Episode 5 - NASCAR Racing - Nvidia NV1/Matrox Millennium/SVGA software
  Episode 6 - HAVOC - S3 Virge vs DirectDraw software
  Episode 7 - POD - 3DFX/PowerVR/ATI RAGE/S3 Virge/Direct3D/DirectDraw software
  Episode 8 - Resident Evil - PowerVR/Direct3D & Playstation
  Episode 9 - Destruction Derby - S3 Virge vs DirectDraw software
  Episode 10 - Assault Rigs - ATICIF & Software
  Episode 11 - Mechwarrior 2: 31st Century Combat - 3DFX/PowerVR/ATI RAGE/S3 Virge/Matrox Mystique
  Episode 12 - Wipeout - ATICIF, software & Rage I/II/Pro
  Episode 13 - Battle Arena Toshinden - 3D Blaster/3DFX/Matrox Mystique/NV1 & SVGA
  Episode 14 - Rave Racer on PowerVR **SPECIAL**
  

[Davros]

Swayee did something similar on vogons (Very Old Games On New Machines)
http://vogons.zetafleet.com/viewtopic.php?t=26536

ps: Are you sure about Nascar Racing And the NV1 wiki can be wrong you know
from your youtube page
"This DOS game released in 1994 was accelerated on the Nvidia NV1"

The NV1 never came out until 1995

[vetz]

The game was released in 1994, but the accelerated version didn't come before 1995. If you had copied the whole sentence if would probably make more sense:

"This DOS game released in 1994 was accelerated on the Nvidia NV1, Matrox Millennium and Creative 3D Blaster VLB (not tested) with the release of the CD-ROM version in 1995. "

I will make some adjustment to the sentence to avoid confusing.

I am aware of Swaaye's nice work, but those videos are just showing one particular version, making it hard to do side by side comparisons.

[Rootax]

Damn it was nicer in my memories...

[Mendel]

Welcome! Following your series with great interest!

Those were really the revolutionary times, the first generation of 3d accelerators... and the difference they made!

Awesome that you´re going to do Quake and Tomb Raider as well, those were the killer apps.

edit: Just watched the Resident Evil video and when I was in the beginning of the video, I was thinking: "It would sure be interesting if you made some kind of comparison to the playstation version as well..." and then... you did!

[PeterAce]

Loved watching these comparison vids

[fellix]

Can I recommend other good old titles, like Carmageddon II and Trespasser?

The last one probably isn't very suitable for comparison, since its engine is only partially accelerated.

There was another notable title at the time: G-Police, a PS1 port for PC with D3D support (not sure for Glide). If you can't find it I'm ready to hand it over.

[Davros]

G-Police runs fine under win7 x64 btw
notable iirc for being one of the first games to use agp texturing

[vetz]

Thanks for the support guys

fellix: Carmageddon II (Glide, Direct3D, software) is added to my list. I'll get around to do that sometime. G-Police and Trespasser are Direct3D only games as far as I know. Those games are less interesting to do because they will look almost the same on all 3D cards. The differences will boil down to framerate and if some cards have glitches due to driver issues. I could ofc compare it only to the console version, but my series is mainly to focus on the different API's during the early 3D acceleration era. Maybe I can start a new series for comparison between PC and console version in the future

and yes, there is a new episode out: Resident Evil showing Direct3D and PowerVR comparison along with some footage of the Playstation version. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2LVfam6w1o

Next game I probably will start tackling is Tomb Raider with the 3DFX, PowerVR, ATI Rage, S3 and Matrox Mystique versions.

[Simon F]

Originally Posted by vetz

Next game I probably will start tackling is Tomb Raider with the 3DFX, PowerVR, ATI Rage, S3 and Matrox Mystique versions.

I have a couple of screen grabs (JPGs unfortunately) of the PowerVR version taken at 1024x768, if that's any help.

[vetz]

Originally Posted by Simon F

I have a couple of screen grabs (JPGs unfortunately) of the PowerVR version taken at 1024x768, if that's any help.

Thanks, but I don't think I need it as I will produce my own footage from the PowerVR version (and all the others).

Forgot to mention in the last post that the Rendition version is in too

I've tested all the versions except Mystique so far and the one I like the most are the PowerVR and ATI. PowerVR can run 640x480 at 60 FPS (others are capped at 30) and also runs well in 800x600 (1024x768 is only 15-20 fps). ATI can also do 800x600 at the 30FPS cap. The others are stuck at 640x480 as maximum resolution.

[Simon F]

Originally Posted by vetz

PowerVR can run 640x480 at 60 FPS (others are capped at 30) and also runs well in 800x600 (1024x768 is only 15-20 fps).

If you are only getting 15-20fps with 1024x768 on Tomb Raider, then you possibly have an issue with your system setup. I used to get much higher (and I should know ).

What 2D graphics card have you paired it ( PCX1 or PCX2 BTW) with? Some had very poor PCI write speeds.

[Davros]

Originally Posted by Simon F

(and I should know ).

OMG I've just twigged on who you are
Gets down on knees and chants "we're not worthy" Waynes world style....

[vetz]

Originally Posted by Simon F

If you are only getting 15-20fps with 1024x768 on Tomb Raider, then you possibly have an issue with your system setup. I used to get much higher (and I should know ).

What 2D graphics card have you paired it ( PCX1 or PCX2 BTW) with? Some had very poor PCI write speeds.

I was maybe a bit quick on saying 15-20 fps as I only tested if it worked, and did not do very much test on the built-in FPS counter.

After some more running around it is between 20 and 30 FPS. It is playable, but it is a bit annoying when you get to bigger areas and the FPS drops to 20-22. I just paired it with a Matrox Mystique 4MB card, but I'll have a look with the other cards to see if there is a difference. My PowerVR card is the Matrox M3D (PCX2).

[Simon F]

Originally Posted by Davros

OMG I've just twigged on who you are.

I just make the tea. <shrug>

Originally Posted by vetz

I just paired it with a Matrox Mystique 4MB card,

The Matrox 2D cards were usually pretty good in that respect. Having said that, there was a "bandwidth tester" published a while back that just got the PCX to blast data into the 2D card as fast as possible. This would highlight possible problems. I could see if I saved the executable somewhere on an old disk.

It could be that my memory is failing, but I do have a screen shot of a "reasonably" complex scene that shows it was running at 28fps.

[tEd]

oh god pod was so awesome

[swaaye]

By the way.
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL995DE461767BFB71

[Davros]

Originally Posted by tEd

oh god pod was so awesome

And still is. it runs on modern pc's with a little patching
http://www.bredel.homepage.t-online....d-english.html

[Davros]

Originally Posted by Simon F

I just make the tea. <shrug>

I cant believe it, Im finally talking to John Holmes, you are a legend of the film industry

[Simon F]

Originally Posted by Davros

I cant believe it, Im finally talking to John Holmes, you are a legend of the film industry

I had to google John Holmes..... hmmmm... I now wonder if those 1.5 Terabytes are actually filled with content of a more dubuious nature.

Originally Posted by swaaye

By the way.
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL995DE461767BFB71

Great link!

[Davros]

Originally Posted by Simon F

there was a "bandwidth tester" published a while back that just got the PCX to blast data into the 2D card as fast as possible.

Final Reality has a "bus transfer rate" benchmark it doesnt give numbers just a score based on a p150 + virge vx which scores 1
just for interest
(A Fusion E-350 1.6ghz + Radeon HD 6310M scores 22.8)
(P4 530 + X1650 XT scores 41.04)
(2.1ghz athlon + 7900gs scores 23.42)
(amd k6-2 350 + tnt2 ultra scores 1.91)
ps: on a q6600 + 8800gts if I choose software rendering My bus score is a massive 54.37 dont know what the score is with hardware rendering but I can guess It would be half can anyone explain ?
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread...=final+reality post 12

download (not x64)
http://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=7259

edit: apparently it does give actual numbers for bus speed on a different tab

[Rootax]

I think "Ultimate Race" would be a nice candidate for comparaison too.

Nice work btw

[vetz]

Originally Posted by Rootax

I think "Ultimate Race" would be a nice candidate for comparaison too.

Nice work btw

Thanks

If you are thinking about Ultimate Race, the version that came bundled with the PowerVR cards there is little point in having a comparison here as they only run on PowerVR cards Though the retail version, Ultimate Race Pro with PowerVR, 3DFX, Direct3D and software support is a game that is a nice candidate.

Anyway, new episode is out. Not Tomb Raider as I mentioned earlier as I got a breakthrough on my project of recording 512x384 on my capture card and thus I could do Destruction Derby for the S3 Virge.

So here it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFVcY...&feature=g-u-u

Tomb Raider will most likely be next for the 10th episode.

[fellix]

Hmm, only the ground texture is left unfiltered. I remember that Virge DX had some noticeable performance hit with bilinear enabled texturing. I used some very simple demos/benchmarks from an early DX SDK (I think) to evaluate performance on basic features back then, like fill-rates, primitive throughput, depth buffering, etc.

p.s.:



I benched with this one, way before 3DMark.

[Rootax]

Originally Posted by vetz

Thanks

If you are thinking about Ultimate Race, the version that came bundled with the PowerVR cards there is little point in having a comparison here as they only run on PowerVR cards Though the retail version, Ultimate Race Pro with PowerVR, 3DFX, Direct3D and software support is a game that is a nice candidate.

Anyway, new episode is out. Not Tomb Raider as I mentioned earlier as I got a breakthrough on my project of recording 512x384 on my capture card and thus I could do Destruction Derby for the S3 Virge.

So here it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFVcY...&feature=g-u-u

Tomb Raider will most likely be next for the 10th episode.

Yes I was thinking about the retail version of course : )